Thought you would be interested in the censored and censured comments. My response to Jay which is still hiding from the group: I thought you might be interested in the rest of the story. I have proven that church is synagogue and Christ outlawed all of the performing arts when GOD’S word is to be taught: the godly people were quarantined from the antics of the King and Commanders of the Army whom God turned over to worship the starry host: why do you think all of the musical invaders can’t read that.
I posted it to you on the link I saw: you don’t have to let people know but I thought you would be interested.
Here is what probably will not get moderated.
Synagogue was not an institution but a set-time-place.
The Holy Convocation was held on the first and sixth days during festivals.
This holy convocation defined as Reading and Rehearsing the Word of God came to be every REST day. Numbers 10 defines the difference between the Alarm (vocal or instrumental rejoicing or elevated speech) from the quiet assembly for instruction only. That is how Jesus exampled it and commanded it with the “ekklesia” word for reading, discussing and summarizing something from a HIGHER authority.
Every seven years, that is in the year of release, during the feast of Tabernacles, the Law was to be read before all the people according to the command found in Deut., xxxi, 10. But this enactment was probably soon found to be impracticable; and thus the Jewish authorities arranged to read on every sabbath, commencing with the sabbath after the feast of Tabernacles in one year of release and ending with the feast of Tabernacles in the next year of release, a portion of the Law so calculated that the whole Pentateuch would be read through in seven years. This would in some way the commandment be fulfilled. Some time later, the Jews of Palestine lengthened the sections for each sabbath in such a manner that he entire Law could be read in three years (Talm. Babyl. Megillah, 29b)
Isaiah was the ASSIGNED text already opened when Jesus stood up to read and then decently sat down. No preaching, no singing in the synagogue.
It is easy to miss “synagogue” as Church beginning the wilderness because people look up the word synagogue. Jesus “came together” or synagogued with the disciples two first days in a row.
When Paul uses “come together, assemble or gather” he always uses forms of the “synagogue” word. James also uses “translate.”
The godly people never did “worship IN the Temple.” John Calvin defined the synagogue in Numbers 10 Latin Con-gr?go Congrego Academia
“The church #1577 ekklesia – assembly, called out ones, set apart ones, congregation; in Hebrew this word is #6951 qahal (kahal) – a “synagogue” (E. W. Bullinger, Commentary on Revelation, p. 165-166), an assemblage, congregation, company from the root #6950 qahal meaning specifically a coming together, an assembling, a convocation, congregation; this word is used mostly for religious purposes (see William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies, p. 92)
“The LXX uses the word ekklesia to translate the Hebrew qahal. Qahal means to call, to assemble, and the noun form means a congregation or assembly. Solomon is called koheleth the Preacher, translated by the LXX ekklesiastes. The earliest known occurrence of the word is found in Job 30:28, ‘I cried in the congregation’. In the books of the law, qahal is rendered by the Greek word sunagoge, showing that the synagogue is the beginning of the New Testament church. Stephen in his speech which ended in his martyrdom referred to the history of Israel, and dwells for considerable length upon the one great leader Moses, saying in Acts 7:38:
Church.
‘This is he, that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai’.
The people of Israel, looked upon as ‘a called-out assembly’ were ‘the Church’ of that period. By Charles H. Welch
Christ ordained that in the wilderness: the Lord’s Supper as the only addition is to preach the death of Jesus.
Christ outlawed “vocal or instrumental rejoicing which includes elevated forms of speech:” We don’t do that when Jesus comes to be our ONLY teacher.
Ken
My reply:
Thanks Ken, I have read your material carefully. I missed the place in Scripture where Jesus outlawed singing or instruments in the NT church. Maybe you are right, I just need to see it in the Bible.
You are correct, the people of God did not worship inside the temple. And I also agree that what happened in synagogue was the reading of the law (word of God). And I further agree that believing Jews were the “church” (called out ones) in the wilderness, God has always had a people, though few at times, there has always been a faithful remnant.
The law, the sacrificial system, the temple with all its elaborate furnishings, and even the priesthood, were all shadows or types until the real thing came into being, His name is Jesus. Consider these facts.
1. God’s word. Once only a written code first written in stone, then with quill and ink, and repeated orally from generation to generation. And God promised the word would be written on the hearts of his people and it is.
Jesus is the Word of God living in flesh. The English word “A P P L E” when heard or read by any English speaking person will cause a person think at once of the fruit that grows on a tree. In that sense, Jesus is the express image of the Father, the fullness of the Godhead bodily, If you have seen him you have seen the Father. John in both the gospel of John and in 1st John makes this very clear in the opening verses of each book. And in Hebrews 1 and other places as well.
2. The temple was in the OT, a place. In the NT, it is a people. God has chosen to make his dwelling in his people. We are warned to not defile the temple and told “you” (plural) are the temple…” Jesus died, was raised, was glorified, and ascended to the Father. And as promised the Holy Spirit came to speak about Jesus, to comfort believers, to teach them God’s word and will, and to empower them for service in kingdom work, especially the preaching of the gospel.
3. The priesthood. Jesus, as high priest went one time for all time, one time for all people and sprinkled his own blood on the mercy seat and by that one offering made pure forever those who are being sanctified (those who are in truth Christians). And, in a very real way each believer is also a priest in that he himself can have a hearing in the presence of the God we serve about matters that concern him, and we can come to God on behalf of others. Peter called us a Kingdom of priests.
4 The Lord’s Supper. You mentioned this as what should be preached, and correctly that it shows the death of Jesus. I would add that it shows the death of Jesus and that He is coming again. And, baptism, is the other gospel symbol, that Christians participate in themselves and then those to whom they teach the gospel, Baptism, like the Lord’s Supper, shows the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I close this epistle (LOL) with this thought. Not one place I can think of in the New Testament even hints that Christians are allowed to do some things outside of a church building that they can’t do inside one. (obviously I am talking about teaching, praying, singing, etc.) I can’t see that God has any interest in a specific location, or building, on earth for Christ’s followers.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying the local church of Christ building is equal, or the same, as a synagogue. I completely disagree if that is what you think. A mortar, wood, and steel building where people meet two or three times a week is no more holy than the house you live in 7 days a week. And, even between 10 o’clock and 12 o’clock on Sunday it isn’t holy either. The very idea that the room where the preaching is done is more holy than the other rooms in the building, or adjoining building, is completely foreign to the Bible.
Ken, I am not angry with you, I love you. It may well be that you and I will just not agree. I hope that does not stop us from loving each other which we are specifically commanded to do. Even if you were my enemy (you are not), I would still love you. All the power of hell can’t stop me from loving the people God says I must love. I don’t have to approve of them but I will love them.
Respectfully,
Royce
Kenneth’s reply.
“Thanks Ken, I have read your material carefully. I missed the place in Scripture where Jesus outlawed singing or instruments in the NT church. Maybe you are right, I just need to see it in the Bible.”
He outlawed it for the Church of Christ in the Wilderness and never changed His mind. He consigned the pipers, singers (lamenters) and dancers to the marketplace where all of the things and bodies were sold. He cast out the musical ministers using a word meaning “more or less violently like dung.” That may be because in Athens and probably elsewhere the man who regulated the flute-girls also regulated the dung heap.
http://www.piney.com/Synagogue1.html
John Calvin on Numbers 10
Christ speaks only through the Prophets and those made more certain by Jesus of Nazareth. The church is built or educated on those two sources. The pattern for commanding and imposing instruments is the goat burnt offering in 2 Chronicles 29. Christ defined the future REST (Pauo) both inclusively and exclusively. He spoke in the wilderness outlawing noise when the Word of God is taught (the only role for the synagogue)
Christ in Isaiah 50 about the Smiting and Plucking to come
Jesus didn’t say “Thou shalt Not smite me.”
Jesus didn’t outlaw Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites either. However, he called them both by quoting the words of Christ in Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 where the entertaining preachers, singers and instruments are named. A hypocrite can only mean in a literal sense a singer, player, dancer, actor or other theatrical performers.
“You are correct, the people of God did not worship inside the temple. And I also agree that what happened in synagogue was the reading of the law (word of God). And I further agree that believing Jews were the “church” (called out ones) in the wilderness, God has always had a people, though few at times, there has always been a faithful remnant.”
I believe that ALL of the people pushing music knowing they will sow discord claim that the Jews engaged in congregational singing and instruments IN the temple. The role of the Levite “praise singers” was to execute you if you went NEAR any holy thing.
“The law, the sacrificial system, the temple with all its elaborate furnishings, and even the priesthood, were all shadows or types until the real thing came into being, His name is Jesus. Consider these facts”.
I don’t believe that the temple was commanded by God. The Tabernacle was the pattern of witness given to Moses. This was to testify that God cannot be put into a box or house: there was never any instrumental noise around the Tabernacle nor in the Law of Moses in any sense. The Temple was a ziggurat because the people had been abandoned to be sent back to Babylon. Jay wouldn’t let me post the evidence acknowledged by the Jews.
Stephen agrees with all of early history I am aware of: God promised David a TENT for an additionsal altar reather than letting him be killed. That was on Mt Zion. However, Solomon built a HOUSE for God on mount Moriah along with the other shrines for his wives pagan Gods. God did not COMMAND king, kingdom, temple, animal slaughter or the noise used to “make the lambs dumb before the slaughter.” That was an evil prototypical picture of the actual musical mocking of Jesus.
Jeremiah 11:19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered
The Jews had A Covenant with Death. The law was not a true reflection but was anthetical to the Covenant made with Abraham which proves of burnt offerings on Moriah that “God has ALREADY provided.”
Skia
2. reflection, image (in a bowl of oil), Sch.Il.17.755.
3. shade of one dead, phantom, Od.10.495, A.Th.992,
of worthless things, that phantom at Delphi, of the Amphictyonic council, D.5.25; hai tou dikaiou s. mere shadows of .
4. evil spirit, Hippiatr.130, PMasp.188.5
also, of one worn to a shadow, A.Eu.302;
Christ says that God DID NOT command sacrifices or burnt offerings: to slaughter a bull was like killing a man in the eyes of God.
Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Christ in the prophets warns about the “Lying Pen of the Scribes” when they write about the temple.
“1. God’s word. Once only a written code first written in stone, then with quill and ink, and repeated orally from generation to generation. And God promised the word would be written on the hearts of his people and it is.
Jesus is the Word of God living in flesh. The English word “A P P L E” when heard or read by any English speaking person will cause a person think at once of the fruit that grows on a tree. In that sense, Jesus is the express image of the Father, the fullness of the Godhead bodily, If you have seen him you have seen the Father. John in both the gospel of John and in 1st John makes this very clear in the opening verses of each book. And in Hebrews 1 and other places as well.”
So true: that is why the Godhead is not a Jay Guin, John Mark Hicks, LU etal THREE PERSONS EACH WITH THEIR OWN CENTER OF CONSCIENCE.
Not even Jesus invented new words he did not hear from the Father who breathed (spirit) without measure (meter). Jesus commanded that we teach what HE commanded to be taught. Christ in the prophets always connect instruments to Satan: Lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute who came into the garden of Eden. The future REST would outlaw “seeking your own pleasure” or even “speaking your own words.”
“2. The temple was in the OT, a place. In the NT, it is a people. God has chosen to make his dwelling in his people. We are warned to not defile the temple and told “you” (plural) are the temple…” Jesus died, was raised, was glorified, and ascended to the Father. And as promised the Holy Spirit came to speak about Jesus, to comfort believers, to teach them God’s word and will, and to empower them for service in kingdom work, especially the preaching of the gospel.”
I believe that God MADE Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord and Christ
Jesus died, was resurrected, was changed and ascended back to God Who sends all spirits.
Jesus received the promise of The Holy Spirit: That is, he received His CHANGED state
He returned at Pentecost (as promised) and HE poured out what ye see and hear.
When the Spirit Lord wanted to equip Paul He appeared to and spoke to Paul in His new Spiritual state: He identified Himself as Jesus of Nazareth.
The another Comforter [paraclete] in John 14 is identified by Jesus as “I will come to you.”
John gives us the Name (singulare) of that paraclete:
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,
we have an advocate [paraclete] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
No classical trinitarian nor the Campbells believed that the godhead was three people.
“3. The priesthood. Jesus, as high priest went one time for all time, one time for all people and sprinkled his own blood on the mercy seat and by that one offering made pure forever those who are being sanctified (those who are in truth Christians). And, in a very real way each believer is also a priest in that he himself can have a hearing in the presence of the God we serve about matters that concern him, and we can come to God on behalf of others.
Peter called us a Kingdom of priests.”
That is a fact: Jesus was not an ego-maniac: He and everyone else preached the “Gospel of the Kingdom.” Christ still rules.
Jesus commaned us to teach what HE COMMANDED to be taught: a Disciple is a student. Students do not do rituals: they go to Bible Class.
“4 The Lord’s Supper. You mentioned this as what should be preached, and correctly that it shows the death of Jesus. I would add that it shows the death of Jesus and that He is coming again. And, baptism, is the other gospel symbol, that Christians participate in themselves and then those to whom they teach the gospel, Baptism, like the Lord’s Supper, shows the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
“I close this epistle (LOL) with this thought. Not one place I can think of in the New Testament even hints that Christians are allowed to do some things outside of a church building that they can’t do inside one. (obviously I am talking about teaching, praying, singing, etc.) I can’t see that God has any interest in a specific location, or building, on earth for Christ’s followers.”
IN THE SCHOOL OF CHRIST
That is because I am not aware of anyone who has written on the subject from either wing including all of the scholars who seem to have the ability to grasp that the ekklesia or synagogue was a set-time place to hold SCHOOL OF THE WORD. In Romans 14 Paul excluded ALL doubtful disputations. He lists some areas because in the cities most people went to the agora or marketplace to take a bath or to eat at one of the public kitchens. Doubtful disputations are personal opinions whoch do not edify: in this context edify means EDUCATE.
In Romans 15 self pleasure (Greek Areskos or Latin Placeo) specificially identifies all of the performing arts which in Romans 14 would be the marketplace (Dionysiacs and Orphics both of whom were identified by their musical performance and identifiedby their DIET). Then the direct command which was the same holy convocation (reading and rehearsing the Word), practiced by the godly none-Levites (Jacob said DON’T attend their assemblies) as ordained by Christ in the wilderness
“Use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our learning (defined as Scripture)” That is the same as the SPEAKING commands in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3. Several writers including Luther identify that as UNISON SINGING but not tunefully.
Martin Luther Romans 15
OUTSIDE OF THAT ONE HOUR WE CLAIM TO SACRIFICE TO CHRIST the common reverence does not apply because your banjo picking does not PREVENT the Word of Christ from being taught.
Could you not tarry with me for one hour? Apparently not.
That restriction has nothing to do with your singing or playing but Christ made the Law to regulate those who will not be quiet while He is teaching: the elders are commanded to teach that which has been taught.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying the local church of Christ building is equal, or the same, as a
synagogue. I completely disagree if that is what you think.
No, didn’t say that: The ekklesia is defined as both a called out body and a place of assembly or house.
Paul uses synagogue words to mean what it always meant: a set-time-place where he uses “come together, assembly or gather.”
The “houses” in the Old Testament were called synagogues but the “assembly” was not located in a building. At the time of Jesus “they” say there were thousands of synagogues in or around Jerusalem. That could be formed by ten families which was probably in houses.
Psalms 74:8 They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together:
they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.
Jesus died to remove the laded burden and burden laders: a burden in both Hebrew and Greek is a repeating type of song which afflicts or “creates spiritual anxiety through religious rituals.” Probably half of the population cannot endure the loud singing, clapping and playing instruments in a “worship service” which induces “decibel poisoning” and OSHA could shut down if they hadt the nerve.
http://www.piney.com/MuBurden.html
-Phortos A. load, freight, cargo, Od.8.163, 14.296, Hes.Op. 631, Hdt.1.1, S.Tr.537, and later Prose, as PEnteux.2.11 (iii B. C.), Plu.Marc.14, Luc.VH1.34; epoiēsanto me ph., expld. as pepragmateumai, prodedomai, phortos gegenēmai, Call.Fr.4.10P.; ph. erōtos, of Europa on the bull, Batr.78, cf. Nonn.D.4.118.
2. metaph., heavy load or burden, ph. khreias, kakōn, E.Supp.20, IT1306; cf. phortion.
II. Att., vulgar stuff, rubbish, balderdash, Ar.Pax748 (anap.) Pl.796.
III. mass of detail, ‘stuff’, in semi-colloquial sense, Aret.CD1.4
Epōd-os , on, （epadō） A. singing to or over, using songs or charms to heal wounds
b. Subst., enchanter, “e. kai goēs” E.Hipp. 1038 (but “goēs e.” Ba.234): c. gen., a charm for or against, “ethusen hautou paida epōdon Thrēkiōn aēmatōn” A.Ag.1418 ; e. tōn toioutōn one to charm away such fears, Pl.Phd.78a.
2. Epōdos, ho, verse or passage returning at intervals, in Alcaics and Sapphics, D.H.Comp.19 ; chorus, burden, refrain, Ph. 1.312 : metaph., ho koinos hapasēs adoleskhias e. the ‘old story’, Plu.2.507e.
BURDEN IS: Epoiēsanto A. make, produce, first of something material, as manufactures, works of art,
Explained as pepragmateumai, prodedomai, phortos gegenēmai,
A. Pragmateuomai work at at thing, labour to bring it about, take in hand, treat laboriously, be engaged in. Work at writing religious poetry for use around the shrine or Hieros the temple of Athena for the hierodoulo
Hierodoulos Nethinim 1 Esdras 1:2 especially of the temple courtesans at Corinth and elsewhere also male prostitutes. Str.8.6.20, 6.2.6; Neokoros
In Romans 15 Paul forbids:
Aeirō , II. raise up, exalt, “apo smikrou d’ an areias megan” A.Ch.262, cf. 791
esp. of pride and passion, exalt, excite, hupsou ai. thumon grow excited, S.OT914
Soph. OT 914 Iocasta
Princes of the land, I am planning to visit the shrines of the gods, with this wreathed branch and these gifts of incense in my hands. For Oedipus excites his soul excessively with all sorts of grief, [915] as he does not judge the new things from the old, like a man of sense, but is under the control of the speaker, if he speaks of frightful things. Since, then, I can do no good by counsel, to you, Lycean Apollo—for you are nearest— [920] I have come as a suppliant with these symbols of prayer, that you may find us some escape from uncleanliness. For now we are all afraid, like those who see fear in the helmsman of their ship.
2. raise by words, hence, praise, extol, E.Heracl.322, etc.; ai. logō to exaggerate, D.21.71.
That applies during the ASSEMBLY because the only commanded purpose is to Read and Study the Word of God.
“A mortar, wood, and steel building where people meet two or three times a week is no more holy than the house you live in 7 days a week. And, even between 10 o’clock and 12 o’clock on Sunday it isn’t holy either. The very idea that the room where the preaching is done is more holy than the other rooms in the building, or adjoining building, is completely foreign to the Bible.
Ken, I am not angry with you, I love you. It may well be that you and I will just not agree. I hope that does not stop us from loving each other which we are specifically commanded to do. Even if you were my enemy (you are not), I would still love you. All the power of hell can’t stop me from loving the people God says I must love. I don’t have to approve of them but I will love them.”
I’M not pouting: My mission is to GO and teach MY side which is quite oppoosite of anything I have herd from prachers or “scholars.” If, as chared that I am a maniac it certaily feels good! I have just spent the last 32 years of my retirement studying the MUSIC issue which people have and continue to impose on people by using the curse of the SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM as the PATTERN for saying that God commanded instrumental praise. (bold type here is my emphasis) That is still the highly vocal approach of the Christian Churches which did not begin to exist before 1927 and were still united with the Disciples of Christ until the 1968 restructure.
I wonder about people who twist all recorded history and refuse to hear the facts. You probably noted the quite brutal attack for my definig “words”? You must define words and read the commanded Prophets and Apostle which is Christ’s side of the story. I don’t believe the universities equip people to do that especially if you use the Levites as the pattern for praise singers.
You don’t need to reply.
Ken
But I did reply here:
May I have your permission to post this whole back and forth on my blog? I will simply cut and paste word for word. Since you have again and again racked me over the coals on your website will you allow me to post this conversation “word for word” and let the folks decide?
With respect,
Royce
Mr. Sublett’s final reply:
You hve my permission. I picked on you because you seem to affirm Jay. Jay on the other hand seems purpose driven to attack the churches of Christ because they won’t either conform or confirm to give affirmation to the Christian churches.
I believe that he does not grasp that there was a prophesied fork in the road by Jacob warning us not to be joined to the Levi thred. He points to the Lion of the Tribe of Judah as the pattern. That pattern was articulated as the ekklesia or church in the wilderness.
On the other hand the tribe of levi was abandoned to worship the starry host and God warned that the kings would destroy them.. The Abrahamic Covenant was restated and then violated at Mount Sinai and Moses declared the Israelite as blind and deaf (Paul affirms in 2 Chron). Moses leap-frogged the Monarchy and promised another Prophet. I have no reason to think that any on the preacher or professor level grasps that. On the other hand, all historical scholars the facts: Even the Kabbalah writers came to grasp that the Temple-State was misunderstood.
Jay leveled some pretty heavy stuff and made assertions about the ekklesia/synagogue as not being the CHRIST thread but then does not let my answers appear. That paints me as in error and a “maniac” as charged.
If it is afact that the Ekklesia first established by Christ was to be solely devoted to teaching the Word then all wiings of the Restoration bird cannot be Christian. Jesus attended and affirmed the role of the synagogue.
Thanks for your kindness and openess.
Ken
Grace Digest 